The Creeping Cancer

"BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires" (biturbo228) 09/25/2013 at 15:41 • Filed to: None

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I learnt an abject lesson in rust prevention today.

About 2 years ago now I spotted some rust on the underside of the Alfa (stemming from when some ape of a mechanic jacked it on the sills and broke the underseal). I ground off the loose rust, painted some kurust* on it and pasted some underseal gunk on the bottom of it.

Not. Good. Enough.

Fast forward 2 years and I'm replacing the front brake discs. I notice that some of the underseal gunk is loose, so I decide to do some reapplication. I start scraping the stuff off with a screwdriver and at one point it just goes straight through.

Ah.

I keep going, exposing an area of surface rust about the length of my outstretched arm running right along the floorpan of the car. What's more worrying is that there appears to be more rusted metal on the inner side of the floor than the outer.

Turns out, one of the original little rust holes has been letting water in after the underseal dried out and cracked. This water has soaked into the underfelt under the carpets in the passenger footwell, rusting the floor from the inside out.

Not cool.

So, the plan is to grind off the loose rust, apply kurust, apply a zinc primer and then use underseal that's sprayed on with a compressor (much more likely to stick and get into tough to reach places).

As for the hole, I'd prefer to weld a new piece of metal in, but I think that might be a bit dangerous. There are lots of wires that run around the piece of metal, as well as the underfelt. I've looked for how to get the carpet out of the inside so I can lift it all out from there, but it's incredibly difficult to do without wrecking the interior.

What I'm thinking is a fibreglass patch to seal it from water ingress, and then run the aircon whenever I drive around to dry out the underfelt. The other option is to make a steel plate and rivet it over the hole with some aircraft grade sealant bridging the gap (my sister's boyfriend works as an aeronautical engineer).

Fingers crossed that will be enough to halt the spread. If not, I'll see if I can get the interior out intact, chop out the rusty metal and weld some clean sheet back in.

*kurust is one of those paints that chemically alters rust

Party-vi > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires 09/25/2013 at 15:44

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No no no. You learned an abject lesson in Italian cars today. No matter what you do or what steps you take, those fuckers will rust.

getchapopcorn > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires 09/25/2013 at 15:46

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Dr. Green: They found rust. You know what rust does to a boat?
Ross: It gives it a nice antique-y look?
Dr. Green: Rust is boat cancer, Ross.
Ross: Wow, I'm sorry. When I was a kid I lost a bike to that
.

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > Party-vi 09/25/2013 at 15:49

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Nah, that's just the simple way out. Fact is, cars rust, wherever they're from. My mum's Honda Stream has rust, and that's from Japan. My BMW has (worse) rust and it's from Germany.

Modern cars rarely have different standards of rust prevention. Even more modern ones have galvanised chassis, but few cars from the 90s do.

People just like to point out rust when it's on an Italian.

DasWauto > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires 09/25/2013 at 15:50

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Sorry to see that man. Your planned fix will probably last well enough for a couple more years but I hope you will be done with the car after that. That cancer is difficult to stop.

I've got some metal cancer to deal with on the e30 too and I just went straight to removing almost the entire interior; everything on the floor is out: seats, carpet (pain in the ass), console. It's going to be a summer car but I want it to be right. I just need time to actually deal with it.

Side note: I'd do some more wrapping of those wires to ensure nothing goes wrong with them just to be sure.

Chairman Kaga > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires 09/25/2013 at 15:50

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Dude.

*manly hugs*

After getting my GTV6 back from the paint shop I was reapplying some POR15 (probably similar to kurust) to the various underbits with surface rust. I pulled the front inner "trap panels" behind the front wheels to wax and paint inside the rocker panels, and found gobs of previously unseen rust. I chipped away and wire-wheeled what I could, then slathered on as much rust inhibitor as possible. I have no doubt my efforts might have stemmed the tide, but not stopped the flood. I can only keep it dry and out of the rain (easy in Austin, Texas) and hope for the best. This car isn't valuable enough to justify the kind of expense required to truly make it rust free.

Like sands through the hourglass, so are the days of our Alfas.

Kugelblitz > Chairman Kaga 09/25/2013 at 16:00

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"Like sands through the hourglass, so are the days of our Alfas."

Sniff. That's beautiful, man,

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > Chairman Kaga 09/25/2013 at 16:02

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Bummer. I hate doing a rust detox and then finding a whole load you didn't spot before.

It doesn't help that the Italians were using the dirt cheapest steel they could find to make their cars during the 80s.

So long as the loose stuff is taken away and it's sealed off sufficiently it should last a good while. Eventually it will need exorcising, but it should last in the meantime.

Oh, have you thought about waxoyling it? Should help protect the box sections and inner wings and whatnot.

Also, I've heard a lot of people singing the praises of spraying engine oil on the underside of their cars once a year. It works better if the underside is slightly dusty so the oil has something to bind onto.

It does seem plausible. Wherever there's an oil leak, the metal surrounding it is always pristine under the gunk (even if the paint has chipped away).

Party-vi > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires 09/25/2013 at 16:03

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Really though, you could have picked any other marque and people will say "oh those rust". It could have been about Volvos (or even old Triumphs heehee) and I would have still said they rust. Everything rusts as you said - even the Willys is starting to rust and it's only got 8,000 miles on it :/

minardi > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires 09/25/2013 at 16:04

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Structural damage?

BlazinAce - Doctor of Internal Combustion > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires 09/25/2013 at 16:11

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After seeing this, I guess I should probably check my Tipo for rust when I have the chance as well.

I'm not really worried about it, though. Rust isn't a big issue in Brazil and the whole car was galvanized, like you said in another thread, but I don't think it's ever been checked before so...

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > BlazinAce - Doctor of Internal Combustion 09/25/2013 at 16:16

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Galvanisation is a wonderful thing, but it does make it difficult to weld things to so any rust that is there will be trickier to treat.

Were you the chap who crashed his Tipo? If so, it'd be worth checking in a couple of weeks for any rust around areas that might have been damaged.

If not, it's still a good idea to check every now and again. It's simple to treat in the early stages, but less simple to repair once it's taken hold.

Chairman Kaga > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires 09/25/2013 at 16:18

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I'm pulling some more of the inner fender panels and will TRY to waxoyl the inner sills, rockers, etc. Basically any cavity I can gain access to will be sealed.

Thankfully I have NO structural rust. There's often cancer in the areas around the front shock towers and motor mounts, which usually means either extensive R&R or the crusher. No, the climate here in texas has spared this Alfa from the worst outcome. I think the rust it does have is just the result of moisture collecting and not being able to drain adequately. The car did sit in a field for almost a decade...

To clarify, when I painted it we cut out loads of rust panels (usual places like rocker panels, behind/below tail lights, window sills) and welded in new, clean sheet. There is still a spot below the windshield that we could do nothing about on my budget. Removing the windshield in these cars either means cutting out a $380 gasket then risking breaking the almost impossible to replace $900 windshield, or kicking out the glass and hoping you can find a replacement, but saving the gasket. So we treated is as well as we could. Like I said, this car isn't valuable enough to spend the cash necessary to do a TRUE restoration. After all, it's an Alfa. Drive the damn thing, don't sigh and rub it with a diaper.

BlazinAce - Doctor of Internal Combustion > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires 09/25/2013 at 16:20

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Yep, that was me. The bodyshop actually checked the repaired panels for rust protection when they were working on them, and they said there was no damage besides the fenders a little. Or a lot.

Anways, that's a good tip. It's been two rainy weeks since I picked up the car, so I'll probably do that in this weekend's maintenance session.

Deal Killer - Powered by Focus > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires 09/25/2013 at 16:26

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I know that wonderful feeling of "Oh, a small spot of rust, I'll just grind that off, and do a little patch job". Six hours later, covered in Bondo dust and tears, I've learned to check often and attack with gusto and possible rust areas on my cars. My wife's Chrysler van has a small cancer on a rear fender, which I just noticed a few weeks ago. We just got this car last year, so this, I hope, is a quick grind, patch & paint job. I'm glad I can find aftermarket paint that matches her car, so I'm not stuck going to a paint shop or dealer. Have fun.

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > minardi 09/25/2013 at 16:31

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Fortunately not. It runs pretty much flush with the box section in the sill, but that's completely unscathed. It will rot out the whole floor if left unchecked though :(

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > Party-vi 09/25/2013 at 16:33

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Very true :) and I will admit old Triumphs rust more than most.

When I took the rear wings off the Spitfire, I could rub the paint off the inner wings with my thumb. Not terribly confidence inspiring :S

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > DasWauto 09/25/2013 at 16:37

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Good idea about wrapping the wires.

This will be a relatively temporary fix. It's my daily at the moment so I'll need it on the road fairly shortly.

Once I've got another member of the fleet reliably on the road I can do a more thorough detox.

Good luck with the E30. They're probably better than many of that era. It was the 80s when the Germans got their reputation over the rest of the European manufacturers for rust prevention.

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > Chairman Kaga 09/25/2013 at 16:43

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I see. We had a similar choice with the Maserati's windscreen. We were weighing up the merits of taking the screen out against the risk of breaking it, but the decision was made for us. When we test-fitted some gas shocks for the bonnet the overextended and pushed the bonnet into the windscreen, cracking it about halfway across.

Luckily we've managed to source another one, but they're like hen's teeth.

DasWauto > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires 09/25/2013 at 16:44

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Thanks. The e30 is definitely repairable. I'm working with some fairly typical rust in the floor that is pretty tough to avoid in my part of Canada. We've got some pretty harsh winters and a lot of salt is/was used over the car's lifetime. It's difficult to find an e30 (or really any car of this age) with pristine floors here unless the car was hardly/never driven in winter. It's just a reality here and that's fine.

As and aside, the Germans of that era were pretty good but BMW's work with the e30 was a little confusing. The car least expected to serve year round duty, the convertible, is the only model that's galvanized. The rest were not, which I find slightly baffling.

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > DasWauto 09/25/2013 at 16:55

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Same here in the UK. Fairly consistent wet weather and nationwide salting of the roads when it gets snowy takes its toll on a lot of older cars.

Odd about the convertible, although that would explain why there seem to be more of them on the classifieds than any other body style.

Slave2anMG > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires 09/25/2013 at 17:22

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You've found why I detest undercoating. It hides rust as much as it stops it. And when water gets behind it...well undercoating is waterproof. So it makes a lovely incubator for the tinworm.

desertdog5051 > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires 09/25/2013 at 17:24

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Rust is a vicious thing. Very hard to stop once it gets started. Good luck.

Bruno Martini > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires 09/25/2013 at 18:31

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I say buy yourself a cheap HB welder, should be about 150bux and get welding. Learn how to weld, this way the miserable experince will turn into something useful. Once rebuilt it will need the rails filled with some oil/wax something that displaces moisture. Do it right and you will be happier for it. No riveting and gluing is going to fix that.

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > Bruno Martini 09/25/2013 at 19:52

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We've got an excellent welder from an Italian factory, and I can weld with a decent amount of competency. I will get around to welding it up eventually, but I need the car roadworthy sooner than I can spare the time to strip the interior and get it sorted, especially if proper painting is involved.

The issue is that there is felt and wiring too close for comfort to weld it. If I can get that out of the way, I can do a good job of welding.

As you say, it is much better to do it right the first time, so I'll see whether I can exorcise the rusted metal entirely before resorting to a temporary fix.